tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post250119841704492068..comments2023-07-11T07:15:18.714-04:00Comments on The Ultimate Adventure: Concerning Good Government IVSylviahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06221464682706193091noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-85636390007748074522007-07-03T19:24:00.000-04:002007-07-03T19:24:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author..https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-14196525011703346492007-07-03T19:18:00.000-04:002007-07-03T19:18:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author..https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-38820691955215486652007-07-03T14:16:00.000-04:002007-07-03T14:16:00.000-04:00Geoff:"In such a case of someone who has committed...Geoff:"In such a case of someone who has committed a true crime, he has, in the commission of the act, forfeited certain rights"<BR/><BR/>Well, I am ready to accept this proposition after a little specification, but I frankly don't see how you can reconcile it to your political philosophy. Consider this: In one place a certain crime might be punishable by death, in another place by fine, in Andy Bodohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13025144744898580423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-59497411611048783382007-07-03T09:31:00.000-04:002007-07-03T09:31:00.000-04:00Geoff:"In such a case of someone who has committed...Geoff:"In such a case of someone who has committed a true crime, he has, in the commission of the act, forfeited certain rights"<BR/><BR/>Andy: "I like the idea here, but what is your basis for asserting this? I will consider it."<BR/><BR/>It is an old, old concept. Locke and Blackstone adhered to it. Even the Scholastics who believed in taxational governments, like St. Thomas, believed in it. .https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-92016988675484946802007-07-03T09:11:00.000-04:002007-07-03T09:11:00.000-04:00Regarding the grain in the field, I recognize it w...Regarding the grain in the field, I recognize it was a question of the sabbath. But I didn't realize that taking the grain had to take place after the harvest. Excellent. <BR/><BR/>"It is his property because he hase a claim to it."<BR/><BR/>True. Good call..https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-2887307189822353372007-07-02T15:18:00.000-04:002007-07-02T15:18:00.000-04:00"Each man has a claim to the property because it i..."Each man has a claim to the property because it is his, not because a greater or lesser harm will come to him because of the fact that he has been deprived of his property."<BR/><BR/>It is his property because he hase a claim to it.Andy Bodohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13025144744898580423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-79215978213516642312007-07-02T14:12:00.000-04:002007-07-02T14:12:00.000-04:00The sin is greater precisely because the homeless ...The sin is greater <I>precisely because</I> the homeless man has greater claim to the $20 than the billionare. Rights are intimately related to justice.<BR/><BR/>"If the nature of the property is the same (that which ultimately belongs to someone because they labored to produce it, or received it as a gift) then the claim is the same for both types of property."<BR/><BR/>This is not the case. Andy Bodohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13025144744898580423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-87178796945570757232007-07-02T14:03:00.000-04:002007-07-02T14:03:00.000-04:00Each man has a claim to the property because it is...Each man has a claim to the property because it is his, not because a greater or lesser harm will come to him because of the fact that he has been deprived of his property..https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-28125072458534237952007-07-02T13:57:00.000-04:002007-07-02T13:57:00.000-04:00"I would specify that the difference is not in the..."I would specify that the difference is not in the nature of the property, but in his claim to the property."<BR/><BR/>If the nature of the property is the same (that which ultimately belongs to someone because they labored to produce it, or received it as a gift) then the claim is the same for both types of property. <BR/><BR/>Obviously, if you take $20 from a homeless man, and $20 from a .https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-35485600529685999712007-07-02T13:44:00.000-04:002007-07-02T13:44:00.000-04:00Just in case the objection be raised, there is no ...Just in case the objection be raised, there is no level for a "cut off point" beyond which property is not useful to the person and thus can be redistributed by force, if only because these ends of human action can be ligitimately pursued limitlessly. Granted, it would be hard to find a way that a man spends a billion dollar on himself legitimates (i.e. within the confines of the commandment "Andy Bodohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13025144744898580423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-78695928565031060032007-07-02T13:33:00.000-04:002007-07-02T13:33:00.000-04:00"In such a case of someone who has committed a tru..."In such a case of someone who has committed a true crime, he has, in the commission of the act, forfeited certain rights"<BR/><BR/>I like the idea here, but what is your basis for asserting this? I will consider it.<BR/><BR/>"How does one get the right to any property? The right to possess and use property is intrinsic to human nature, yes."<BR/><BR/>To be more precise, I would say that the Andy Bodohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13025144744898580423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-3856389232879519442007-07-02T11:49:00.000-04:002007-07-02T11:49:00.000-04:00Granted.Granted..https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-81033297484735661712007-07-02T11:31:00.000-04:002007-07-02T11:31:00.000-04:00Yes, against the Devil's temptation for Christ to ...Yes, against the Devil's temptation for Christ to worship him, Christ responds with the maxim, "Worship the Lord your God and serve him only!" The maxim does not go to the promise of having all the kingdoms or the claim that the kingdoms are his to give. (Consider the dialogue regarding the other temptations here). Christ did not have to dispute the devil on all points, he rejects it all out Andy Bodohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13025144744898580423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-49568436044867995082007-07-02T11:26:00.000-04:002007-07-02T11:26:00.000-04:00Look at what Christ said in response, though. Gran...Look at what Christ said in response, though. Granted, it still comes down to whether paying taxes is serving God through serving government. But everyone knows what I think about that. : ) <BR/><BR/> -Geoff.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-1937861652966879012007-07-02T10:42:00.000-04:002007-07-02T10:42:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author..https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-50557701668330150952007-07-02T10:28:00.000-04:002007-07-02T10:28:00.000-04:00Geoff said..."Note: Satan says, "All their authori...Geoff said..."Note: Satan says, "All their authority and power" of "all the kingdoms." Were all the kingdoms what we would call "corrupt?" Or were they just your everyday, generic kingdoms? Perhaps Satan showed Jesus the whole span of history in this vision, as well. "<BR/><BR/>Well, I would question the source.<BR/><BR/>"[The Devil] was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, Andy Bodohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13025144744898580423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-7992530282914328502007-07-02T09:39:00.000-04:002007-07-02T09:39:00.000-04:00Another point for consideration. Kind of falls int...Another point for consideration. Kind of falls into the "not a sparrow falls from the sky without God approving it" concept of government. (Sin is a moral evil, but must still be allowed by God in order to happen.) <BR/><BR/>Luke 4:5-7: "The devil led him up to a high mountain and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and .https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-87172934082685436562007-07-01T23:01:00.000-04:002007-07-01T23:01:00.000-04:00Andy: "In other words he possesses a factual claim...Andy: "In other words he possesses a factual claim to something, and that claim ought not to be violated, though some of these claims (depending on the nature of them) may be nullified by one with proper authority (as when a judge orders a man to be sent to jail for a crime)."<BR/><BR/> In such a case of someone who has committed a true crime, he has, in the commission of the act, forfeited .https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-75645802076209938802007-07-01T18:09:00.000-04:002007-07-01T18:09:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author..https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-91353924851393438002007-07-01T18:08:00.000-04:002007-07-01T18:08:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author..https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-36044560033595523282007-07-01T17:28:00.000-04:002007-07-01T17:28:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author..https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-14396463673515384852007-07-01T01:23:00.000-04:002007-07-01T01:23:00.000-04:00Well, Geoff, thank you for bringing up the hat. B...Well, Geoff, thank you for bringing up the hat. Be assured that it has caused no little consideration or reading. I must concede that my description of what a “right” is wrong (no pun intended). I believe that “responsibility” is good and “authority” is good, in so far as I have stated it, but I can see that we will have further discussion on the latter. I am also interested in your mention Andy Bodohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13025144744898580423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-49162702048742778362007-06-29T20:20:00.000-04:002007-06-29T20:20:00.000-04:00Power flows from the people. Authority flows from ...Power flows from the people. Authority flows from God. It is my contention that the people are foolish to give power to a set of coercive individuals. Also, that it is immoral for them to make decisions concerning the money of other people. Such as those of us who do not vote. I refuse to vote and thereby lend any sort of perceived justificatory credibility to someone who will spend other .https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-18674916146380901452007-06-29T17:08:00.000-04:002007-06-29T17:08:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author..https://www.blogger.com/profile/01714070136249395568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28749242.post-68590518070397774932007-06-29T16:45:00.000-04:002007-06-29T16:45:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Andy Bodohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13025144744898580423noreply@blogger.com